Mark Mitten 0:05 Did you spend two hours sitting at a table and get a crappy kitchen design? You better call Paul you Paul McAlary 0:32 Hi, Eileen, can you hear me? Yes, Arlene 0:34 Paul, I can. I'm here, and my husband Leo is here. Okay, Paul McAlary 0:39 wonderful. Welcome to better call Paul. So I don't know if you've looked at your email, but I sent you a hand drawing of a totally different kind of layout for your kitchen. I don't know if you've kind of Arlene 0:52 checked at that yet. Yes, Leo was just looking at it. Now, why don't we discuss the Paul McAlary 0:57 layout that you sent me first? Essentially, this layout sort of breaks most of the rules of kitchen design. And you know the problems, I'll sort of list them in order for you. But generally, when we design kitchens, one of the first things kitchen designers try to do is one never put a sink in the corner. And the reason you don't want to put a sink in a corner is everything. If you stand at the sink and try to work, you can't open any of the cabinets that are on either side of you, because they open into you. And in this design, it also doesn't leave you with the dishwasher. And even if you're right, sometimes customers will say, Well, I like washing my dishes. I once had a chevron that he found it soothing to wash all his dishes. And what I said to him is, well, it may be soothing washing your dishes, but if you ever go to move, you won't be able to sell your house if you don't have a dishwasher. So we should at least leave a 24 inch cabinet so that somebody that wants to buy your house can put a dishwasher in next to your sink, and then he said he's never going to move. He swears to God he's going to be there his whole life. Die in the house, etc. And three weeks after his kitchen is installed, his business sells and he moves to Florida, but thankfully, we convinced him to put a 24 inch cabinet next to the sink, and he was able to do that. But in your design, you know you don't have that dishwasher. Even if you don't want it, it saves water using a dishwasher instead of washing things by hand. Arlene 2:28 Oh, no, I definitely wanted I don't know why they left it out, and we didn't realize that until we had gotten home, until Yeah. Paul McAlary 2:36 So, yeah. So you want to have a dishwasher. You want to have a garbage just pull out near you. You want to have lots of countertop to be able to work at, and in your design that you have now, the only place that you can really work is on your island, and it's not near anything that you're cooking with. It's not near your sink, it's not near your stove, and it's not even lined up with them, you know, not to mention, when your refrigerator doors open, they cover the countertop on the right side of your sink, you know. And the sink bowl that you're going to have has to be a standard, small, single size, single bowl sink, and even the island itself is facing in a sort of a unusual direction, and not really doing a lot. And then all the pantries that you have that are so deep, sort of still leave that area to the to the left of them, sort of not being used at all. And you could have 12 inch deep pantries over there, which is the design that I had. And 12 inch deep pantries are almost as useful 50% or more than 75% or 66% as useful as 24 inch deep pantries, because 12 inch deep pantries are going to be the depth of you know, a spaghetti box, a cereal box, anything that you'd put in a wall cabinet, any kind of food container, is almost always going to fit in a 12 inch deep cabinet. And if you get a 24 inch deep cabinet, then you end up getting roll outs to be able to access all the way in the back of the cabinet, and you end up really, only really using 18 inches of the total depth of the cabinet. Yeah. So just for those reasons, changing it to the design that I sent you makes it a infinitely more functional space. And the other thing too is that this designer is obviously very inexperienced, not only by the design that they sent without the dishwasher, but also by the fact that they show four stools on a countertop that's 79 inches long. In reality, you only can fit more stools at a countertop that's like 100 inches long. So not 79 inches long, and even 100 is impinging. You know, the two people sitting in opposite directions are impinging on each other. So there's no way in the million years you'd ever get six people around this island. So the peninsula I sent you comfortably sits five. Which is what your island did before. And then it also okay. You're not sitting any less than the other one sat. And then, you know, now when you're working at your stove, you have 36789, feet of countertop to your right that you can use. You have two feet of countertop to the left that you can be placing things, spices, things like that. Handles of pots can all go out and aren't impinging on the sink or anything else. And when they're at the sink, you have the minimum amount of base that you really should have, which is really three feet of countertop on your left and a little bit more than 18 inches on the right. And then in my design, you have a whole bar area to the right of the refrigerator, and then the pantry cabinets that are on the right side of the refrigerator. This one is just works way better than the other one. The other one probably has the island that you requested in it, but it's not really working. Yeah. Arlene 5:56 Okay, so now, do you know over let's see where the sink was in the corner, right to the right of the sink. There's a window there. Yes. Oh, okay, all Paul McAlary 6:12 right. The advantage of this design is that when you're at your sink, you're now facing all the people in your house. You're facing the people sitting at the peninsula. The countertop is a little bit more than four feet deep, so you're the people sitting at the back of the peninsula aren't close to the sink. They're more than two feet away from the sink. And then the person that's at the stove, when they're working at the countertop next to the stove, they can be looking at the window, but if you're not looking at a window. You don't want to look at a wall. You want to be looking into the room. You don't have the advantage of the diagonal sink that looks out the window. That's probably where the sink was before, in the corner, right? Arlene 6:51 Actually, the sink was right below the window. Paul McAlary 6:55 Was below the window, and I don't know how you get with the sink there. It's, you didn't have any cabinets in back of you or something. Arlene 7:04 Do you remember Leo? So if the sink, the sink was right below the window into the right of that there was a little bit of counter and the spend the stove to the right of that right, yeah. Paul McAlary 7:19 And was it just straight countertops. You didn't turn the corner. It wasn't the nail Leo 7:25 in the old design. There was a window and a sink. Then there was a burner stove to the right, going towards the patio door. But there was, then there was a wall oven, oh, in the coin to the left, Paul McAlary 7:38 yeah. So, I mean, that's even worse, the wall in the perfect kitchen, like, if you look up in the NKBA, the National Kitchen and Bath Association, if your kitchen is sort of an L shaped kitchen, like you have, we're trying to make the triangle of the L somewhere between and this is like standing in the center of the refrigerator, standing in front of your sink, standing in front of your stove. We want that triangle to be somewhere between 19 and 26 feet. Your triangle is very, very small, comparatively. Arlene 8:14 Okay. So actually the sink is in the island where you have the chairs, that's where the sink is and the dishwasher Paul McAlary 8:22 in the peninsula. Right in the peninsula, the dishwashers on the left, your double trash cans on the right, you can switch those two things. It doesn't really make a difference. The reason you might want the dishwasher on the left is it just makes the people sitting over there have more countertop between them in the sink. And also, when you're putting things away from the dishwasher, then the dishwasher door comes down. Everything that's going to be put away is sort of on your right, although you can just flip them, put the dishwasher on the right hand side of that sink, and put the trash can on the left, and then everybody has access to the trash can Arlene 8:59 right. All right. So everybody's Paul McAlary 9:03 space is different. Oh, and it also shows in the picture that you don't have sliding doors. You have French doors. So Arlene 9:14 we No, we do, yeah, we do have sliders. Yeah. So the sliders Paul McAlary 9:19 are good too, like in this design where I have the refrigerator, anybody coming from your living room, going into the kitchen, can walk to the refrigerator, get something. They don't interfere with anybody. They can actually get something from the refrigerator, then go out to the backyard, right? Not interfering with anybody. People coming in and out of the backyard have a whole over four foot, 50 something inch walkway that they can be going through in between the refrigerator and the countertop. It's sort of a classic kind of kitchen, and a lot of times what people want it what customers do is they see some kind of kitchen online that has an island or something like that, and then they want to replicate that thing in their space that's completely. And totally different, and it just doesn't work for your space, that island, Arlene 10:04 I'm sorry to keep interrupting you. Sorry, no, I was gonna say that island doesn't go into the living room, though, right? That island? No, Paul McAlary 10:13 my island ends short of your island. So your island, the edge of the countertop, on your island, you can see it goes a little bit past the end of the wall right my ends up about eight inches short of the wall, so I'm about a foot in from where, at least 10 inches probably in from as far as your island went into the living room. So I'm actually using less space. You're getting more cabinetry. Your price of your countertops is going to skyrocket because you have a lot more countertop but, I mean, that's a good thing. You know, you want to have a lot of countertop space around the places that you're working, especially around your stove, and you have none. So when you're at your stove, you can't work there at all. You have one foot on each side here, and if you turn the handles of your pots and pans out, they're touching the wall on one side and sticking out over the sink and the other side. So you have to do all your work at the island. And then every time you want to stir a pot or a pan, run back to the stove. Anytime you want to wash something, run over to the sink. Then nothing is happening in your kitchen, except that to the at the island, and then anytime anybody goes to the refrigerator, they're walking through the whole shebang, right? So this way, we're sort of preventing people from from disturbing anybody that's actually working. Okay, Arlene 11:34 yeah. I mean, at first looking at it on there, oh boy, no. But now, now looking at it, it sort of makes sense, because then the the center of that kitchen is all open, right? The Paul McAlary 11:48 most amount of space you have, it says that you have 60 inches from the front of the pantry to the back of the island. And then there's a overhang that's more than 12 so 45 inches of space in back of the island, between your pantries and your island, and then you have just under four feet of space between the island and the wall. You have three feet of space if your refrigerator juts out. I don't think you want to in any of these designs. You don't want to get a full depth refrigerator. You want to get a counter depth refrigerator so your refrigerator doesn't jut out into the room so far. But even with the countertop refrigerator, you've got about 42 inches between the refrigerator and the island, which is also a little bit tight. So you know, you go from being a little bit tight to having more than five feet between all the places that you're working and then, most importantly, when you're at your refrigerator, you can be rooting through it, kneeling on the floor, cleaning it, being doing whatever you want. You have literally nothing in back here. Arlene 12:47 Yeah. So thank you. Well, Paul McAlary 12:50 you can have a designer put it on the computer for you, and you can look at it. And I would tell you that even it's not the things that people want when they actually see a design that works. It looks like it belongs. It looks like your kitchen was designed for it, and it doesn't look like what this looks like, which is, here's the space I had, and here's how I jammed a bunch of cabinets into it right your kitchen that you hear looks completely unnatural. And if we make it look natural, that makes it attractive, and that's really what makes your house valuable. It's not your house is less valuable when we when we create a kitchen that sort of looks at a place for customers, they usually don't appreciate it until they really see it in three dimensions. So I think what you want to do is have one of the designers create a three dimensional kitchen, although I don't know if I go back to this place, is this a home center? Or what is this place? Leo 13:45 Yeah, it's like a home center, so cabinets and windows, Paul McAlary 13:50 yeah. So people, places that sell cabinets and windows and doors, you're probably better off going to a home center, maybe. But if you find a kitchen, a real kitchen place, those designers are going to be getting paid way more than anybody at a a Windows and whatever place those people just don't Can Arlene 14:07 I Can we pay you to do it three dimensional? Paul McAlary 14:12 Um, you can take the little hand drawing I did and you can bring that to anybody, and they can put that on the computer for you. I don't know that you need that. Like, where are you guys located again? Are you waiting? Leo 14:26 Yeah, bail. Bail, right across from Newark Airport. Paul McAlary 14:28 So you're really far away from us. There's lots of decent places you could be shopping for cabinets around you. And then also, like, the contractors, we wouldn't know any contractors up in that area, or anything else. So finding a place that would know contractors and be able to help you and stuff shouldn't really be that hard. And you can take the plan that I sent you and just bring it to any of those kitchen places. But I think you want to try to find a kitchen place. And maybe if you just Google fab you would Fabu Wood is a kitchen. Cabinet brand that's very close Leo 15:01 to buying Yeah, so Paul McAlary 15:05 if you find another fabulous dealer that's not a window place, that's like, it's a kitchen cabinet dealer, generally, they wouldn't sell fabulous if they were overpriced, because, if they were overpriced, they wouldn't sell fabulous, because there's so many other dealers that sell fabulous that aren't expensive, just the fact that they're selling fabulous, you know, sort of telling you that they're not overpriced. But if they do sell all the cabinet brands, and they don't just sell windows, they sell cabinets and countertops, and they have a kitchen showroom and stuff like that, and let maybe more experienced designers, then you're going to get somebody that's going to know what they're doing more than maybe part of the problem here is this person was just doing it so fast that they just forgot about the dishwasher and everything else. Two Leo 15:52 hours. We're just like, two hours sitting at a table. Paul McAlary 15:58 Well, two hours, if you don't know the software that much, and you're starting off as a kitchen designer, yeah, it's probably Leo 16:04 okay, Paul, I got questions. Can I ask you some questions? Yeah, sure. You sent us two schematics, just this one, just that one. Yeah, no, that's not Paul. That was the one I sent to Paul. All right. So you have this stove on the left hand side, right, yep, we have a problem venting out because we're attached. Paul McAlary 16:28 No, you don't because you have molding that's going up to your shield your ceiling. How high is your ceiling? Is it 96 inch? Leo 16:37 Yeah? Definitely 96 Yeah. So Paul McAlary 16:39 you want to get 36 inch high wall cabinets, and then you want what's called a stacked molding, a six inch flat molding with another Cove molding or crown molding that we take the ceiling. So there's a high value, there's a six inch gap on top of your cabinets. So what you would do is run your microwave hood. If it's a microwave hood that you're getting, which I would recommend for a small kitchen. Then that's going to be your microwave, your fan, your light, and vent outside, and then it would go up through the microwave, the vent through the cabinet on top of the microwave, and then it would run over the top of your cabinets and go out the back of your house, and you wouldn't see the don't work right? It would be behind the molding, Arlene 17:22 right? Yeah, I don't want a microwave. I know, use microwaves, and I don't want one. So I would like just a Paul McAlary 17:31 hood, yeah, or a hood. You can do the same thing. The Joyce in the room probably, I'm not sure which direction they go, but if we're they Leo 17:40 run across. They Paul McAlary 17:42 go run across. So then, yeah, so if you're going to get a hood, either you would get what's called a canopy hood that would go underneath a cabinet. So you'd have a cabinet with a hood underneath it. Or if you wanted a big, tall hood, then you would have to have with the tops of the cab that's line up, the hood would go up into that space, and you cut a hole, and then it would go over the moldings and everything else, and the moldings would go across the room. And you're, if you got a chimney hood that would vent up into that space. But if you did that, then, I mean, I would think most people if, even if you don't like a microwave, I guess you could put it on the counter on the right side of the refrigerator if you ever wanted one, or the way I've got it, or instead of a bar refrigerator that I have on the right side of the refrigerator, if anybody wanted to buy a microwave drawer cabinet and have a microwave under the countertop, they could do that Arlene 18:37 over here. Yeah, all right, did you have other questions? Leo, you Paul McAlary 18:43 can absorb it and then, you know, try to find a different, a better kitchen place, and have them put it on the computer. Are you planning on having a table too, like in back of this? No, no. I mean, that's a little bit of a problem too, but it's not a huge house. So, I mean, you're only sitting five in either of these designs, and everybody's at a countertop, which is not Leo 19:04 the house. The house, you know, the house was built right into the Korean War, and it's basically three bedrooms, but one diapers would arrest somebody if they put a kid in it. Okay? So it's a living room. It's a living room going from one end of the house right through to the other house. Little bathroom right off the kitchen at the top it says coming from the basement, okay, Paul McAlary 19:29 and then the basement stairs are right to the left of this whole seating area here. Leo 19:36 Yeah, yeah, where you have 85 Paul McAlary 19:40 Yeah, they're going down. There is the basement. Yeah, Leo 19:43 where's the sink? Right on that walk. Paul McAlary 19:48 The sink is the circle next to the DW. It's right on the peninsula. Okay, it's on the peninsula. It's on the peninsula. Yeah, yeah, but it's the peninsula is four feet more than four feet deep. If someone's sitting at the back of the peninsula, they're like 2626 inches away from the faucet. Arlene 20:06 Yeah, it's a tough kitchen. Where's the where's the island to sit at? This is it? Here's the chairs that you're an inside. That's five chairs. That's Paul McAlary 20:16 all you're fitting in the other design too, unless you were going to do something else different, which, you know, the only other thing you could do to fit more people would be to get rid of the trash can cab and have somebody sitting into the refrigerator. But that doesn't work so well either, having somebody sitting with their back going into the refrigerator. The other design that you could do with a kitchen like this too, is you could not have people sit at the peninsula and have a table pushed up against the peninsula, and then, if you did that, that would be a little bit lower. Maybe you'd have like a small wall, and then people would sit at three sides of the table, but you probably only get five on the in the table that way too. So it's a little bit of a tough choice. But you know, the only reason Leo 21:05 we had that many people, the only reason we had that many people now is was a party, and then it becomes, you know, sit the living room with something on your lap, right? Paul McAlary 21:14 Yeah. And I guess, when things are in a pinch, and if you had six people, somebody can always pull up in front of the dishwasher, but it's almost like having something in your lap, right? Leo 21:26 Yeah, yeah. Paul McAlary 21:29 But think about it. You can have people, you can have put, have them, put it on the computer so you can take a look at it. There's other versions of this, like going back to having a table, you know, I guess that's what you have now. Had before was a table in front of the sliding doors, right? Leo 21:46 Did I tell you our history? Arlene 21:48 No, yeah, because we took, we took the wall down here. So in our house, we have a small kitchen, but in the next room, the connecting room is the dining room table, yeah? Paul McAlary 21:59 So you could, and that's where we Leo 22:02 physically live, next door. Now, we bought the house next we bought the other house, and we're doing that over. We don't think we're selling it. Okay? Paul McAlary 22:12 You can, if you want to go back to you could take this design that I've got right, you could put the refrigerator over by the sliding door, and then go back and put a table over where the refrigerator is in my drawer. I can send you that too. Yeah, yeah, and then you have a table. And you could, even if you wanted to have it be, if you got benches on the back, it will be a little bit tight, but and you won't sit anybody at your peninsula on the side that you know will get rid of the overhang on the peninsula that's facing the refrigerator, and we'll just move your refrigerator over to it by the sliding door, and then that whole area and all that storage and everything else and other countertop that You have over there would just become a table area. And that's another way to do it, and that's another way to do it that gets you a kitchen table that you can put leaves in and expand and maybe have, you know, to people sit there. It has a lot less cabinetry than either of the designs that you know, the one you sent me or the one that I did. But once you're going to kill having a table, then I think the best use of the space if you're not going to have a table, is the one that I sent you. Arlene 23:29 Right, right. Okay, um, oh, can, can you just say what you suggest for countertops? Oh, Paul McAlary 23:36 um, you know, all countertops are, are good. The thing that's popular nowadays is quartz. But if you got a granite countertop the level one, granites are going to be half the price at least of most of the quartz countertops that people would pick. And there's nothing wrong with granite. It's just that everybody's sort of picking colors nowadays that look a lot like marble. And if you want the countertops to look like marble, you end up getting quarts. So but it's not like it's anything that's better or more durable or anything else than the granite. You know, some people worry that granite is supposed to be sealed. It's so easy. You can get a quarter sealer for $15 and it just, you just remove everything from your countertops, and once every few years, you just wipe them down with the sealer and you're done. So that's not really a hard thing to do or anything. And And granted, doesn't burn. If you got quartz countertops and you put something right off the stove or off the broiler on your countertop, you could sing it. So the courts isn't in any way better. It's just the colors that people like more nowadays. You know, the granite will be the least expensive colors. Okay, Arlene 24:50 if we decided to move the refrigerator near the door and you put a table there, would we still have pretty much a lot of Cabinet. Space? Well, Paul McAlary 25:01 you'd have more cabinet space than you have now, not as much as any other two designs, because you'd lose all the cabinets along that whole wall they would all have. And then, if you're really looking for a lot of cabinet space, and you're looking to have a kitchen that's really easy to work in and cook in, then this one's the best kitchen for cooking. It just only sits five, and everybody's at a peninsula. That's the negative part about it, Unknown Speaker 25:28 right, right? And if you want Leo 25:30 to have good if we go to another place and get another computer thing out, can we come down to you and sit with you or something? Paul McAlary 25:38 You know, what you can do is you can always call in on a Friday, and then if you really want, we can actually make it not a call. We can make it a Zoom meeting if you want on a Friday, and we can zoom and I can, I mean, we're willing. Leo 25:50 I mean, do you work? Are you in a store? You just, do Paul McAlary 25:55 you send the store? No, we have a store and everything else. But really, for kitchen designers, the way we make money is, you know, people don't really want to pay for our time. Because, you know, if we bill ourselves out, we want to make about $150 an hour, and I want to make 300 so if we're really doing it for by the hour, you know, no one would pay us. The reason, the way we can make money, we sell you the cabinets and then all the kitchen places the cabinets are all getting marked up. Like, if I look at your kitchen and you're doing it in fabulous this looks like, if you got roll outs in the pantries and some other stuff, you probably have $15,000 in cabinets, or $14,000 in cabinets, at least with a lot of roll outs and stuff. Maybe even more than that. Did they give you a price for all the cabinets you have? Arlene 26:44 One was 12, the fabulous, but it was a different design, not in many cabinets, not as Paul McAlary 26:52 many cabinets. And the pantry cabinets are really expensive. And if you get roll outs in the pantry cabinets, it's, you know, $150 a roll out. And I don't think there's any rollouts in any of these. So if you added the rollouts, all of a sudden, you'll be up to $15,000 in cabinets. So if you're spending $15,000 in cabinets, probably more than $5,000 in profit, or $6,000 in profit that a kitchen cabinet place is going to make off of you. That's how they're going to pay their designers, and that's how their designers are going to make money. Leo 27:23 The designers are built into the purchasing price. The designers at Paul McAlary 27:27 almost all kitchen cabinet places, the design time and the help is built into the price of the cabinets. And so when you cabinets where you have somebody else design your kitchen, if you're paying them, that doesn't make any sense, because the place that's going to sell the cabinets would have done it for free. And for us, you really wouldn't want to pay us for our time, because we're, you know, I'm going to want to charge you a couple $100 an hour at least. You know, if you ate up six hours, that would just be throwing six hours away. You can call in on the helpline every week and just have me tweak or fix whatever problems you had. Okay, Leo 28:03 another computers to be three dimensional from one on Paul McAlary 28:06 the computer, and then take a look at it. And you know, like they won't let you know they Leo 28:11 put it on a computer. By the time you got home, you forgot half the stuff you were talking about, and they didn't put the put the dishwasher in there. Paul McAlary 28:20 Well, the other thing you could do is you could just send them my hand drawing in advance, so that they'll have the whole thing done when you come in. Arlene 28:27 Okay, all right. Oh, so do you rec you on the 24 inch pantry? You recommend pull out, or you really don't know, Paul McAlary 28:36 on the on the 12 inch deep cabinets. You don't want any pull outs in the 12 inch deep pantry. But that's what's good about it, because it's only 12 inches deep. When you open the doors, it's less expensive, and everything is right there. There's no reason to have a pull out. Everything is right in front of you, so all of your food and everything else, if your goal was to have as much storage as possible, you could get rid of the cabinets and the countertop that I have on the right side of the refrigerator and make that pantry too, but that would be tons of pantry space. Arlene 29:05 Oh, okay, all right. And Paul McAlary 29:09 if just feel free to call in again, we'll go over it and go from there, Arlene 29:14 what with the to the right of the refrigerator on the top? Oh, it's a wall cabinet. Is that the WC? Yeah. Paul McAlary 29:23 WC. So I have, right now, I have more cabinets, more base cabinets, and maybe even a bar refrigerator or another base cabinet, and then wall cabinets above, so like on the right side of your refrigerator, that's where I would put my coffee maker, maybe. Or if wine refrigerator. I would put it over there. It's sort of on the way to your living room, so it's sort of a nice place to for people to go and get a drink or get a cup of coffee or something like that. Leo 29:50 But where did where to sink and the dishwasher and the trash bin? What's the fab that's Paul McAlary 29:57 a full height base the dash line. Okay, is the overhang of the countertop, so that if you stick your head underneath the countertop, there's 12 inch wall cabinets underneath there, but they're a big pain to get to. You have to go under the countertop to get at them. So if it's me, I do something like put my Halloween decorations in there, or put something they don't use a lot, something you don't use a lot. Or if you have grandkids or kids, you know, little kids toys or something that let them crawl underneath there and get that stuff. The reason I have cabinets there is because it looks really nice facing into the living room to have all the doors and everything on the backside. And it gives you more countertop space so that you have, you know, your countertop there is now more than four feet. It's like 51 inches of countertop. Leo 30:44 All right. We also have to prettier sink and everything being there, we're gonna have to check out Paul McAlary 30:49 the plumbing downstairs. But again, all this stuff is the plumbing and moving the plumbing and like the 12 inch but Leo 30:55 the thing is, a lot of is a small basement and a small walkway. There are wall support walls there, and also air duct for all the air conditioning, yeah. But Paul McAlary 31:09 generally, it's not hard to move plumbing from one location to another. I haven't seen yours, but usually the contractors can work around that. That's not as hard as you know. And then you know, the cost of the plumbing, the first thing that happens is they have to run the plumbing up out of the basement and then cut the bottom of the cabinets out, and then they put shut off valves and everything else on after the cabinet installed. So, you know, moving your plumbing probably takes the plumber a few hours. It's funny, but just like in the kitchen that You sent Me, the kitchen I designed for you is way less expensive than the kitchen you sent me only because you have a lot of deep pantries, which are more expensive and need roll outs probably and then have I have a lot of bigger cabinets, whereas you have a bunch of narrow ones. So when you have narrow cabinets, like a base 12 and a wall 12 and wall 12 and a base 12. It's just more expensive way to design a kitchen than breaking it up into bigger cabinets. So just generally, I Leo 32:12 just have to ask you to go over by where the window is now. Is that? LS, Paul McAlary 32:18 that's a lazy Susan. Leo 32:22 Oh, underneath it, okay. Paul McAlary 32:23 And then the Lazy Susan is going to not have a bar in it. It's not going to be plastic. If you're getting fabulous with cabinets. It's all going to be solid wood on ball bearings on two different shelves, so stuff won't be falling off and falling down, and everything else. It'll be very accessible to you. Arlene 32:40 And then do you do you suggest to pull out drawers rather than cabinets or no? Well, Paul McAlary 32:45 it's always good to have some big drawers, because that's where you put pots and pans. So that's why I have one big drawer cabinet. And drawer cabinets are more expensive than a regular cabinet, but I have one big draw cabinet to the right of the Lazy Susan, because that's right stove and you can put all your pots and pans. And pans in there, and then everything's right there. Arlene 33:05 Okay, all right, well, we never doing this one, Paul McAlary 33:09 so yeah, think about it, and then bring it to somebody. And then if you have more questions, just call in again. Arlene 33:14 Okay, okay. Leo 33:17 All right, thanks. Okay, Paul McAlary 33:19 good talking to Francis. Bye, bye. Arlene 33:21 All right. Take care. Have a great new year. All right, bye, Mark Mitten 33:25 bye, bye. Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul McAlary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices. For more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchen design.com. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai