Mark Mitten  0:05  
Is your kitchen flipped backwards with this stove where the sink should be. You better call Paul.

Paul McAlary  0:31  
Hi, Hannah, can you hear me?

Hannah  0:32  
I can well, welcome

Paul McAlary  0:34  
the calls with Paul. So I've looked at the thing online, and I'm still having a little bit of trouble conceptualizing exactly what the layout of your your house is. In the pictures that you sent me, you said you're removing one of the walls, you know, that's next to the stove in the design that you were looking at, sounds like it's the wall that the TV was on, but it's not that wall, is it?

Hannah  1:02  
So, yes, partly. Okay, I just met a few more photos that will give you the whole overview of the house, even though it's not great. But that TV wall, it's like a faux closet, and then behind that, if you walked into the closet, behind the closet wall is the stove.

Paul McAlary  1:27  
Okay, so you're thinking about taking out the closet and then the wall and back of the closet, or some of the wall back of the closet as well. Yeah. So when I look at their design, that TV wall has, that's the same window that's there before, right? So your stove essentially is staying where it is. Now you're removing the wall and there's, there's a window there. Did you say you sent me something else? Um,

Hannah  1:59  
yeah. Oh, okay, a current kitchen exactly as it is.

Paul McAlary  2:07  
So that's a mock up of the current kitchen as it is. Oh, that's perfect. That helped me completely. Okay, great. You're taking out that wall is getting you a little tiny seating area.

Hannah  2:22  
I'm really open to your harshest feedback. My desire is really that if I kitchen, I have line of sight to the living room. You know, I don't want to work against this house. The house is what it is. I'm not looking to spend, you know, $50,000 and take the

Paul McAlary  2:43  
structure The only, the only problem is in getting you line of sight to the living room, you're creating a whole ton of problems. You'll now have line of sight, but you'll have no hood over your stove, so no ventilation. We don't know where your microwave is going to go, and you're giving up that. And then I don't think that you'll ever have two people sit at this countertop. It really can't be four feet long. It's probably a little shorter than four feet or something like that in this design, at any rate. And then one person sitting against the wall will have their elbow against that wall. You really need probably a five foot countertop for two people to comfortably sit at. And then, when I'm looking at your newest design, what's to the left of the stove? Could you extend the countertop in that direction? The left of the stove, you have a cabinet that I guess you're making a little bit bigger and moving the stove down a tiny little bit. You know, even right now, when they designed this kitchen, it's backwards, right? You know why anybody would put the kitchen with the stove underneath the window and then have a sink facing a wall? When they could have reversed the two never made much sense, right? And then, if you did do that, that you wouldn't have any problems, right? If your sink was under the window. Now, you'd have a whole lot of countertop going across the room. If you wanted to open up that wall, you still could if you wanted to, especially now if you move your stove to the sink wall,

Hannah  4:22  
if you saw the No, I'm on a concrete Yeah,

Paul McAlary  4:25  
I know you're on a slab, but essentially you're going to kill the value of your home over not jackhammering up and doing it a couple of $1,000 worth of plumbing. And, you know, concrete work, the one thing we say when we're doing a kitchen, we want to try to defunctify your house, and what you're doing is making it it's already funky, right? You're making it funkier. So when you funkify Your house, the value of it goes down far more than a customer could ever understand, because to them, it's maybe the thing that they want. But to the rest of the world. All when it's funky, it's like undesirable, right? So what does that kind of feeling translate to? And how much someone's willing to bid on your house, it's way better to make it a good kitchen first and before you do anything else, right? Because then you get the money back that you invest if you do it and it's sort of funky, the people that buy your house may decide that they want the thing that will be normal, and they could put back everything that you and redo it the way the house really was designed for the kitchen being essentially the room flipped right, right, really, sort of the way the house was designed, and maybe the architect even designed it that way, either that or the architect was just crazy. But, I mean, it really made it made no sense not to have it flipped initially. But I don't think you just want to embark on this project and even taking down walls and doing the other stuff, which isn't, you can take down the wall if you want, but it won't be a weird thing when it's not in the middle of the stove, and the stove has no ventilation, and you're sitting at a countertop with a stove halfway in front of you. I mean, all of those things are just so weird, right, that and right and dysfunctional and not really safe. And then the other thing is, it's also illegal for another reason that still too close to the window. The stove is not supposed to ever be near the window, because if you put curtains on the window and you had a fire on the stove, you can set your house on fire. I can't tell you how many kitchens replaced because the customer's house was set on fire because the window was too close to the stove. It's more than it's, I can probably still count on my fingers, but it's, it's more than three or four kitchens that have had that problem. So it's not something that is a rare event. It's sort of, you have a fire on the stove and you have curtains on your window, they're going to catch they're going to catch fire, and then the question is, how much damage gets done when that fire when you start that fire, so you don't you have so many of those problems, and they're all solved by moving the plumbing. You know. Now you can vent your you can have the microwave on top of the stove, and then the microwave can either be self venting and bend, or it can vent outside, if you like. And then you'll have a view when you put your sink in front of the window, and that view will be very desirable, because now you'll have light and you'll have nothing over your sink, and you'll get more cabinets out of it. It's, that's the first step. And you sort of, you know, you didn't want me to say that, I guess, because it's more work, but it's not as expensive as you think. And the other stuff. I don't know if you've added it up yet, but you know, even if you got very reasonable cabinets, you might be spending $5,000 on cabinets. You might be spending, if you got quartz countertops or something like that, you might be spending two and a half $1,000 on countertops, or granite countertops, maybe two and a half $1,000 on countertops. You have, I don't know if you're getting new appliances. Are you going to keep your appliances?

Hannah  8:07  
I mean, the hope was, in some ways, if I could do a phase approach, like meaning I keep the appliances, or if I needed to change the stove to a downdraft stove, because it's electric, it's not gas, regardless

Paul McAlary  8:28  
the other Yeah, the downdraft stove is going to be that would be a huge expense compared to moving the plumbing line, because you're going to have to buy a downdraft stove, which is much more expensive, and then you're going to have to do the duct work in the slab again.

Hannah  8:45  
The other part is you might see this, like random kind of open space on the right side of the sink. The hot water heater lives there in that class. Okay, so I thought about relocating that as well. I'm just trying to figure out, like, where does the money? Make sense? I guess my hesitation with

Paul McAlary  9:12  
I think it's, you know, moving on water heater isn't crazy expensive. It looks like your laundry room is really big.

Hannah  9:20  
I wouldn't say anything. The house is really big, but yeah,

Paul McAlary  9:25  
yeah. So I'm looking at, let me just look at your laundry room again. So yeah, there's definitely room in the laundry room for the hot water heater. And the hot water heater is really very easy to move because it doesn't have a drain, right? So it's only hot and cold water lines. So that's plumbing lines that can be run over in the ceiling to get back down to the hot water heater. The architect that designed your house was not brilliant, right? So why you would even put the hot water heater there and make ruin another. Kitchen hurt your kitchen again when it easily fit in the mud room. And the mud room is literally the room where it should be, right? That's the normal place for it to have been. So instead of doing stuff in stages, I think you have a working kitchen now you have the problem that all customers have. There's only two things that make financial sense, right? And it anything you do that doesn't make financial sense. You're doing for your own happiness, but you're never going to get the money that you put into it back. And so the only two roads that make financial sense are do as lead, little, as absolutely, as little as possible, to just maybe make the kitchen tolerable until you do it all right, or do it the right way. And if you do it the right way, you always get all your money back many times over. You may have to wait a long time this house. The value of this house has always been crippled by the fact that you had the water heater in your kitchen and you had a weird thing that was already sort of strange, don't you know, you don't want to compound that funkiness. If you get rid of the funkiness and move the move the water heater, you'll actually have become the the architect that the architect should have been, and you'll fix all his, all his or her, probably his mistakes, and there won't be anything left for anybody to do in the house, as far as layouts in the kitchen. And then, you know, you're, I don't know how old you are, if you're an old person like me, eventually, somebody's, I mean, there's someone's either going to inherit a house worth twice the amount of money that you put into the kitchen renovation, or more, depending on how long it is, or when you go to the old person's home, you'll get your money back many times over, whereas anything short of doing the best thing that you can do, either the people that buy your house may be ripping it all out and starting from scratch, and they may be also make all the wrong decisions as well, because it's really easy to make a funky kitchen, right? Anybody can do it. It's going to take a millennium for anybody that's not a really good kitchen designer to ever come upon the best design, usually. But you sort of know it, but you're just trying to avoid doing it, you know? But a lot of people would never find it, but it's really a no brainer. In your case, you got a hot water heater that's junking up the works, and you just get so much more countertop and usable space if you move it, that's got to be $1,000 no more. And then jackhammering up the concrete and moving the plumbing to the new location, they have to still do a whole lot of plumbing when they do your job anyway. They have to cut off all the plumbing lines. They have to cap them and then put the new cabinet on top, and then put new shut off valves on. So they're doing all that work. So a plumber, or somebody's doing all that work anyway. So the question is, if they're already doing all that soldering, or all that connecting or whatever, with new shut off valves and everything else. How long does it really take somebody to jackhammer up the floor and run the plumbing pipes? I know I could do it and be done by lunchtime, and then I just have to cement everything up. You know, maybe the whole thing takes a day. You'll get ripped off for it, and it might cost you $2,000 but you know, that's $3,000 and your whole project is going to cost you if you keep your appliances as that you have now, even your whole project is probably going to cost you $20,000 or something like that. So you know, if you have $5,000 in cabinets and a couple of $1,000 in countertops, and you don't, we're not talking about moving anything, but then you're going to take if you're thinking about even taking out the wall or doing anything like that. I don't know what appliances you might buy, but it's quite likely that by the time you buy all the things that you need, you'll have spent at least $10,000 in stuff, in tile and flooring and sinks and faucets and handles and backsplash tile and other stuff. So that in $10,000 in construction wouldn't be a surprise to me, especially if you're thinking about taking out any of the wall or anything. So if you're spending $20,000 really talking about 15% so that $3,000 that you might be spending, it could make your house 20% or 30% more valuable. You know, just that $3,000 I would just save my money until I can do that whole project.

Hannah  14:33  
Yeah, I appreciate that. And if you're gonna keep

Paul McAlary  14:35  
it, anything that you do in between, anything that you were to do wouldn't be usable again. So like, if you got new countertops, they won't be usable again. If you got new cabinets and tried to keep everything in the same place, they won't be usable again if you ended up changing the footprint. So anything you do short of the best design is just money. That's. Bend that won't be reusable. It's the same thing that we tell everybody. I think that when you see it too, and it's all it's the right way, it will, it will just be so convenient. You'll also have a microwave that's off your countertop, and can be a hood and gives you a light, gives you a fan, gives you all that stuff. And also, when you do this too, don't get a double bowl sink. I would get a one single, big, single bowl sink.

Hannah  15:29  
Uh, yeah, agree.

Paul McAlary  15:30  
It's unfortunately, the conversation that we have time. And certainly, whatever you do, you don't want to splurge on anything, right? Because if you were to get anything expensive, like, Oh, I just really love this countertop that's $4,000 instead of $2,000 for granted, well, now you're $1,000 away from a good kitchen, right? So if you splurge on stuff and you don't get the good design, heaven forbid you splurge on better cabinets, or fancier cabinets in a color that you like, and a countertop that's more expensive, or a slide in range, the range itself is an extra $1,000 and then you got more than $1,000 in ductwork that really is supposed to have a basement and not a slab that it's under. Because how does that thing get? I guess you could duct it down and then up or into the just a very more complicated it's usually ducting down into a basement and then out the basement. But you have a lot of more expensive appliances and everything else that you might be buying, and you might be spending the same amount of money. You don't want to end up spending the same amount or more money and not get the design, and you'll find that you have good taste, so that when you go shopping for things, you'll like more expensive things, but those more expensive things aren't making your house more valuable, whereas rearranging the layout is, and if you do it, you'll never regret it. You just have to find the right contractor too, because contractors, a lot of times, are lazy, so they'll want to tell you that moving your sink is too much trouble. Oh, we can't really do but of course they can, and we know how much it's supposed to cost. They just might be too lazy and not want to do it. They might want to try to convince you not to do something. Nobody values design until they see it, until it's it's a physical thing, then that's what makes your house sell. You know what? My wife and I went the house shopping. We were just thinking about, we love our neighborhood. We're thinking about maybe moving to another house because we saw one online that had all this beautiful stonework on the outside, and it was an older home and this beautiful stonework, and it had five bedrooms, but only one bath and a horrible kitchen that all needed to be replaced. And we would thought, well, you know, we can gut this house, and we can really renovate it. We'll be still in our neighborhood. We'll make a half a million dollars on our house. And then whenever we sell this house, we'll make another half a million dollars or more, and it will be a money making thing, and we'll be able to make it all right. Then we took a look at this house and found out that it had many more problems than we could see in the pictures. And then we decided to take a look at a couple of other houses. We stopped at one house and the realtor said, well, but as we're entering the front door, they claim the thing about this house is it has an amazing kitchen. And I looked at it, and I said, it should. And he said, What do you mean? I said, I designed it, right? So it's the selling point of the house that we're walking into. You know, it turns out that we couldn't find a house that was going to make any sense for us to get because our house is laid out and it doesn't have any funky things, and it was going to be too hard for us to defunctify the other houses that we were looking at, you know, and even the one that had the really beautiful kitchen that was its claim to fame, it had a beautiful kitchen, but it had some other problems. So you won't have any problems, at least with your kitchen and your mud room, if you do do this,

Hannah  19:04  
and would you say, if you're starting with a blank canvas, you basically mirror image this kitchen. Would you add the line of sight to the living room, or would you just keep that wall regardless?

Paul McAlary  19:23  
Like, would you just keep the I think that that either way, but even taking out that wall right is probably taken out that wall ends up they have to drywall and paint and join compound, and there'll be some electric lines in it that they'll have to rerun. But taking out that wall, maybe that's going to cost you $1,500 or something like that. Well, that's halfway to plumbing. That's halfway to the plumbing thing too. So it's just all the same money. But taking out that wall, a lot of people will like and some people won't, but it's certainly. Doesn't hurt you in any way. Once it's the sink over there, then taking out that wall doesn't leave anything weird. So if you like it, then do it. If it's $1,500 to remove it, it doesn't probably even cost you $1,500 because you'd end up having a wall cabinet over there that you're probably not going to have then. And maybe the wall cabinet was $400 so maybe only cost you $1,100 total to remove the wall. That part's up to you. Some people will like it with the wall. I think a lot of people will like it without the wall, because people like more open concept things. But it works when it's kitchen and a countertop without a stove next to it and without a stove next to a window, that whole thing works way better once you flip it. And then even when you flip it, you could flip it two ways. You can flip it exactly. The whole thing sort of flipped the way you might have it now. Or you could elect to have keep your refrigerator where it is, I guess. Although I think I flipped the whole thing, I just flipped the whole thing, and then have a lot of countertop on the sink side. Because even if you do put the sink centered in front of the window, if your refrigerator stays where it is instead of moving to the other wall, you won't really quite have enough room to have your sink centered on the window with a dishwasher next, right? So, or if the dishwasher goes on your left, you won't have enough room for a garbage can on your right, whereas, if you get rid of the stove, everything will be normal. You'll put your dishwasher on right side so that you dishwasher door comes down, then you can unload everything into your kitchen with your dishwasher on towards the end, and then you'll have your sink, and then you'll have, you know, maybe on the other side of the dishwasher, you'll have just enough room for maybe a nine inch cabinet for cookie sheets and trays, or maybe not even that, probably that. And then you'll have the garbage can on the other side of the dishwasher, close to the doorway going into the other part of your house, so people can come and put stuff in the garbage without interfering with you when you're at your sink. It all sort of works and why it wasn't done that way. I mean, I can't even imagine being the plumber and the electrician and everybody's building this house with such an obvious it almost makes me think that the homeowner themselves was the one that switched this. It's just so on. You so odd, right? It's just such a no brainer that you would want to flip the two sides of the room. So how could the architect really have designed it and then just have it so absolutely backwards? It makes me think somebody stuck their big nose in it and changed it for some reason.

Hannah  22:43  
Well, it's, um, the reality is, it's old, old military housing, and so I just don't think this ever thought, yeah, a lot of went up in very short amount of time. Like it's just a neighborhood full of these cinder block homes that

Paul McAlary  23:02  
does everybody else have to stay in kitchen

Hannah  23:06  
more or less? I mean, a lot of them have been flipped. Now, none of them have been flipped.

Paul McAlary  23:12  
But interesting, but it's so funny. But it's like, you know, you have to order all this stuff. It would, of course, nothing to flip it. It was just so obvious. It's like, I go to people's houses all the time, and they have, like, a patio door. The patio door should be on the left hand side because the table is on the right hand side. But they had to order a patio door. They're the same price no matter which way the door opens. But instead, they put the side of the door that opens behind the table, so that if anybody's sitting at the table, you can't get out the door. So like, why you would order the door backwards? But it's like 35% of the time I walk into somebody's home, when they design the home, they ordered the door backwards and and it hasn't been replaced yet. That means just absolutely no thought you had a 5050, chance even to get it right, you still got it. If I convince you to do it, you'll be happy in the end that you did.

Hannah  24:04  
Yeah, I and

Paul McAlary  24:08  
then just don't splurge on cabinets and stuff. Was there a color cabinet that you liked, or some kind of anything that you were thinking about getting?

Hannah  24:15  
No, I was being very budget conscious. Like, butcher block countertop, like kind of basic cabinet. Well,

Paul McAlary  24:26  
the butcher block countertops aren't going to save you any money if you do the thing with the overhang and the seating, because now they'll be custom butcher block countertops, right? Yeah, so if you just kept the walls as they were and didn't take out that wall well, then you could just go to Ikea or Home Depot and get butcher block countertops. They're not actually that inexpensive, if they're really nice, like Ikea had some really inexpensive ones, but I we bought, we actually bought one from Lowe's for our offices, just for a bench. In our in our offices, and just a four foot countertop at Lowe's was pretty expensive. It was like $400 or something like that. So you'll need a bunch of these countertops that will end up costing probably by the time you're done, around the same price as granite would have been. And if you do take out the wall, then you'll be paying per square foot for your countertop, if it's granite and not butcher block, so that overhang that you're sitting at will only cost you the square footage of the overhang, which is like three square feet. So if you are getting like around here, a level one granite, that would be $45 a square foot. So three square feet is under $150 so you know that won't cost you anything. Whereas, if you were butcher block and you took out the wall once you're doing custom butcher block, that's actually the same price as the granite. So it's not any less expensive anymore. Yeah, they had

Hannah  25:57  
some Home Depot options where they kind of sell you like, an island that then you could, like, cut out, was the idea. But I think, yeah, there's definitely some things to think about, and I just have to come to terms with there's no easy wins in this kitchen. Well,

Paul McAlary  26:16  
there are just that you can't get around that expense, but it's not that huge. And what you can do too is get all the numbers we know it should cost for you moving this plumbing, which I'm thinking is should be 3000 bucks, or something like that at most, and maybe only $2,000 so if it's $2,000 you know, I know we have guys that would do it for two grand. So if it was only $2,000 to move the sink extra, you could price everything out both ways you're thinking about doing it, and then when you price it out both ways, then you can really be looking at what this different number is between the two, you know, you know, whatever, at least be making the decision eyes wide open. And even haven't designed it both ways. Well, you haven't designed the one way. So you can see it designed the one way, and then just have somebody design it the other way. So you can sort of see that too. They can't

Hannah  27:13  
design this way. To your point, like, as soon as I saw it, I'm like, this doesn't work. This makes zero sense,

Paul McAlary  27:18  
right? And then the other thing is, is you don't even have a dishwasher other than the new design that you have, right, right?

Hannah  27:24  
I mean, yeah, I don't know where I want to sacrifice counter or cabinets for a dishwasher. Well,

Paul McAlary  27:33  
I mean, the one thing about a dishwasher is, when you move the hot water heater, you'll have more countertop, right? So that will help the cause, but you can't really design a kitchen without a dishwasher, either. So what you can do if you don't really want a dishwasher? I've had customers that have done that. They've decided we had one customer that was a chef, and he found doing the dishes soothing, so in his own house, was buying custom cabinets from us, very expensive custom cabinets, but he didn't want a dishwasher. And I said, Listen, I don't want to sell you this kitchen without a space for a dishwasher. You're getting custom cabinets. Why don't we just put a 24 inch cabinet to the right of your sink, so if anybody wants to buy your house, they can pull out that 24 inch cabinet and then put a dishwasher there. And you, if you don't really want a 24 inch dishwasher, you could get an 18 inch dishwasher and leave an 18 inch space if you wanted to. But whichever you what, you leave the space so that somebody that wants the dishwasher can put it in. And more importantly, before you go to sell your house, you pull out the cabinet, because everybody else in the world wants a dishwasher, and you put the dishwasher in because you could get that money back many, many times over, because they won't have to be the one that switches it. At any rate, this chef, what with me, fought with me for with me, I'm going to die in this house. Why do I want to put a dishwasher in when I'm never going to use it? I like to do, you know. And by the way, if he's going to die in the house, he doesn't even know he could have a stroke, and then somebody else has got to be in his house. And now he's paying people to do the dishes by hand instead of a dishwasher. But at any rate, he relented. He got his kitchen, his custom cabinets, $30,000 in cabinets, or whatever it was, for a very small kitchen and custom cabinets, but we left a 24 inch cabinet next to the dishwasher. No sooner was his whole kitchen done than somebody approached him and gave him an offer he couldn't refuse and bought his whole restaurant, and then he moved to Florida so he wouldn't have been able to sell us. As adamant as he was, it took three months before he had to pull the trigger on replacing his dishwasher, we're replacing his cabinet. It's always good to temper whatever the things are that you want a little bit with what other people want, because we all don't know the future,

Hannah  29:52  
right? So and as far as distancing the stove and fridge on the other side, what. Is best.

Paul McAlary  30:02  
You usually what you want to do is you put the refrigerator in the corner, and then you leave the minimal amount of cabinet space on one side of the stove, and then the maximum on the other. Okay, so you have 124 inches. So the refrigerator you have is like 30 so you have a 30 inch stove and a 30 inch refrigerator, which is 60 inches, and you have 124 inches. So you'll you'll have four inches of filler, some of it, three inches of the filler will be on one side of the refrigerator, so that the refrigerator door can open and not be binding against the wall or anything, and then you'll be left with 60 inches. So I would take 15 of the 60 inches and put it in between the refrigerator and the stove, and then have 30 inches on the other side. And then that way, all of the doors on that whole side of the room will all the wall cabinet doors will be 15 inches wide over the refrigerator. You'll have a 30 inch cabinet that should come all the way out with a panel on the side of it, and those doors will be 15 inches wide because the refrigerator is 30 inches wide. Then you'll have a 15 inch cabinet below. Maybe that's a drawer base, or just a regular base with the drawer on top with a 15 inch wall cabinet to the left of it. Then you'll have your stove that's 30 inches with a microwave hood above it with a wall cabinet that's going to be probably 12 inches high, with two little doors on top of it, each that's 15 inches wide. And then you'll have one base cabinet that's all drawers, because it's pots and pans drawers that will be to the right of your stove, and then you'd have a wall cabinet above it that's 30 inches wide, and those doors will be 15 so you'll end up with a completely symmetrical, at least that is the width of the doors go on the wall cabinets all equal on that side of the room, which looks really Good. Okay, and you'll have big pots and pans cabinet, like even in this design that you have now, you have the sink and these two narrow cabinets next to the sink. The bigger a cabinet is, the more space you have. We try not to give people a bunch of narrow cabinets, right, which, if

Hannah  32:16  
we take out the water heater, we will have more room on that wall, but yeah, can follow similar logic.

Paul McAlary  32:23  
This is the layout that you have now, the one with the floor plan where they have the orange base cabinets next to it, in between the stove and the refrigerator. They did that all wrong too, that, you know, you should have had a 30 inch cabinet next to the sink just to make that one big cabinet, and then this 224 inch cabinets would have been much better subdivided into, I don't know, an 18 and a 30 inch to have one big cabinet and one narrower cabinet, and you'll have tons of space on the other side. You'll have tons of space around the sink. And if you wanted to, you could, you know, even have an appliance garage in the corner, if you wanted to. There's lots of things you can do, but those things are going to cost you a little bit of money, so, but all of that price it all out, get all the numbers in. Don't just get one estimate from one contractor, especially since we know it's going to be a little bit annoying to move the plumbing. So the guy that's going to be easy going about moving the plumbing is going to be the most competent, and he'll like doing it because he knows it's a better kitchen that you're going to get. And so he'll be proud of the work that he does. So the people that don't want to move the plumbing are also the kind of people that you don't really want to work with, you know,

Hannah  33:41  
like the shorter route, yeah, they

Paul McAlary  33:44  
just look in the cut corners, and it's just their nature. Like, when I was a contractor, we'd finished the work at the end of the day. And sometimes the guys that worked for me and me, I mean, I was very proud of what we did, but they all wanted to just sit. And lot of us smoked back then, like, 35 years ago, but they'd want to have a cigarette, and maybe, maybe somebody would go out and get a beer or something, or a couple of beers, but we wanted to look at what we had done that day, you know, and just appreciate that we were creating something that was really nice because we were all proud of it. And it's like they were off the clock. They were I wasn't paying them anymore, and they wanted to hang around and look at their work. So those are the kind of people you want working on your house. And somebody that's like, doesn't want to move something, even though it's making it a lot better. Like a lot of the contractors we work with, would want to move it so much that they would actually give you a break moving it, you know, or they they'd lose a little bit of money, or not make any money moving the plumbing pipe because they know it's going to make a better kitchen, which is going to make them feel better about your project, and working on your job and being there every day a more palatable experience. Yeah, always get three estimates from contractors, and just if you get that person that takes pride in their work, that. Is not making a big fuss out of it. That person, you might be surprised that it's a very good sign when you run into one of those people. Okay, all right. Well, good luck. If you ever need us again, feel free to to call again, and maybe we'll, we'll talk again. Okay, thank you, Paul. Okay, thanks. Hannah, great day. All right, bye, bye.

Mark Mitten  35:25  
Thank you for listening to the mainline kitchen design podcast with nationally acclaimed Kitchen Designer Paul mcalary. This podcast is brought to you by Brighton cabinetry, high quality custom cabinetry at competitive prices for more on kitchen cabinets and kitchen design, go to www dot mainline kitchendesign.com.

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